Gamergate
With
this story developing with every second and people quitting their
jobs. I wanted to put my two cents in this story with some bullet
points.
-Stop
the death threats: If you're one of these asshole attacking
either side with rape or death threats, please stop. This doesn't
further the discussion and actually hurts both sides of the argument.
We can't have a good discussion about this issue unless we distance
ourselves from these assholes on both sides. And, make no mistake
BOTH sides have crazy people wanting to cause harm. It needs to
stop, so cooler heads can talk about this shit.
-No
more copyright claims or false flags as attacks: I already wrote
about this.
-If
you disagree with Anita Sarkeesian, stop threatening her:
It only serves to strengthen the stereotype that gamers are creepy
neck-bearded white guys that just want a “Dongs only” club.
Anita's claims and videos have poor stances and one-sided views, MAKE
a counter video for everything you disagree with in her videos. If
you think she's only showing one side of the issue, make a video
support the other side and your views. This is how discussion works.
For every threat, she can hide behind just showing her side of the
issue and not opening up her comment section. Thunderfoot and a few
others are doing this. If you have an issue with the way gamers and
your franchises are being framed, MAKE a counter point.
-Phil
Fish doesn't help or bring any thing to this issue or discussion:
I'm sorry but it is true. The man is so angry and venomous that he
actually hurts the cause with his outlanish tweets. And, for the
good of his mential well-being, he really needs to stay away from
Twitter. Twitter is NOT for everyone. There's no way I could
function with 150 characters, sorry I'd end up like Mr. Fish.
Anyway, everyone just needs to ignore Fish and let him stew. (He's
like throwing a box of TNT into a raging forest fire.)
-Stop
with the Gamer Title hate Stories: Yes, stop with the gamer
hate. We know it is a collective push back to the Gamergate story.
I'm a gamer and go f' yourself. That doesn't mean I hate girl
gamers. Heck, one of the best Let's Plays I've watched was a girl
gamer. She
actually does all the accents in the Chrono Cross LP, and it is
amazing.
-No
more hacking or false hacking of pages, accounts and docs of gamers
and devs: Now, I say this, but on the other side...contact the
FBI and other police groups. If you were really hacked, please file
a report, just so we know that the hack was legit. And, we know that
the FBI takes this very serious.
-Both
sides have valid points and stop with the extreme name calling:
Enough said.
Posts
17 comments:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bw2B3UaIUAARgZG.jpg
The whole movement was fake. They roped in a lot of people with the promise that it was about gaming journalistic integrity, but it never was. It wasn't a grassroots thing... it was something that was managed and shaped by a group of people whose agenda was always to cast out progressive voices, especially women (and mostly friends of ZQ), from the gaming press.
I just watched one of my favorite game writers have her career destroyed a few days ago because she was asked to write a piece about stopping harassment for the Guardian, a story which was in large part about what was happening to Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian.
But because she contributed a small amount of money to Zoe's Patreon and Zoe was contributing about the same amount to her own Patreon, a fact that she disclosed as a footnote to the Op/Ed, which the Guardian's legal team, from a paper that is 119 years old, said was not a conflict of interest and they removed the footnote.
And Al-Jazeera picked up a conspiracy image that someone from the Gamergate community and made this woman, someone who has written about the fact that she makes virtually nothing from writing, the very face of "corruption" in gaming.
Despite disclosure on her part... and then Twitter attacked and she quit the business, she ended her career... but they wouldn't stop. They just kept going after her, they wanted her to just stay quiet... but she still addressed them, and she was polite while doing it... but they wouldn't stop.
And they called that winning. They said running someone who was making no money and who was someone who had integrity... running her out of her career was victory. Pushing a freelance writer out of her career.
So when you say both sides have valid points... only one side did that. And this woman I'm talking about... she's an award winning writer in her field, and she's not the only woman who was pushed out in the past couple days.
And that was victory for them.
I think it is also disingenuous to compare insulting "gamers" (most of which were leveled at throwaway twitter accounts) to death threats and full scale harassment.
I'm curious as well... in the places you frequent about this, did anyone talk about native advertising, or the fact that for a long, long time, there were a lot of YTers who were getting directly paid by developers to make LPs of their games and weren't disclosing it, or discussions about media conglomeration (like the fact that CBS Interactive owns GameRankings and Metacritic and both Gamespot and the site Gerstmann started after he was fired from GS, Giant Bomb). I have a feeling those subjects don't come up.
Also notice the last line of that picture I just posted. They say until next year. They are planning to do something like this again. Remember that.
You say both sides were issuing death threats/doxxing etc. It was almost universally one direction.
How harassment works on Twitter:
a) Harassed parties have a limited number of reports they can file. This means that if you hit someone with enough abuse, they can no longer file reports about it, and you can just inundate them with messages.
b) If you are harassing someone, you can leave the message up for a while and then delete it and Twitter considers that a resolution to that incident of harassment.
c) While twitter does seemingly have a mechanism for third-parties to report abuse, in practice what happens is you fill out the report and at the end Twitter says you can't file it because you aren't the person who is directly being harassed.
The people doing the harassment know these three facts and they use that to their advantage.
Phil Fish hasn't been in this for weeks. His twitter, company page and a lot of his personal stuff was hacked into and he quit. He wants out of the industry too.
Yes, I partly agree with this. But I do believe there those that are a part of that grassroots effort. And, everyone has an agenda in this. However, there are some moderate voices on the Gamer side of this that I fully support. Currently I have a huge problem with the conservative elements now taking over and getting louder. (Adam Baldwin and other conservative elements) They even make it harder to talk about things. This is really troubling. I want there to be a progressive movement in gaming and other media, but there needs to be dialogue and exchange of ideas, not comments being cut off and death/rape threats. Nothing can be gained if we quickly go to name calling in this matter.
I am a moderate to a progressive guy (with many conservative views), but people need to talk about how to go forward. Has both sides even talked about this issue in depth as we have over the months? We've been extremely civil about this and both sides could learn something from us. (not that I am tooting our own horn) Even when I don't like someone or something, I will admit when they're right.
(Quinn's depression quest is right on the money about being depressed. I actually have to make those decisions everyday)
There are huge issues in gaming. (right now a major gaming company is playing the patent troll role with another company and it is sickening)
The Game writer: I was reading about that too with the writer leaving the industry, I really didn't get into it, but I should have. It seems the editor was the one that left out the notation that there was a relationship with Quinn.
God damn, I forgot you have to double enter each paragraph
Damn it
I'll have more
Both sides do have points, however when the harassment and the conservative elements from.
Even my views have changed over the years. One of my friends from work, and I have very few friends from work, is a female gamer. She is more into the war gaming stuff. She even sides with Antia and her videos. But I respect her because she knows her stuff and not because she is merely a gamer. She can put me under the table with her knowledge of current gaming (yet, she STILL hasn't played the Bioshock DLC, which I really want to discuss with her because the reveal is HUGE) (and, she knew nothing about the Swatting incidents, but most people don't)
Do we need people calling Zoe Quinn a slut or a whore? Nope
Do we need Zoe Quinn making a point of showing a “Gamer” coke can and throwing it away in a series of photos? Nope.
Do we need people hacking into things and getting information? No
Do we need to lump all SJWs and Gamers into just two narrow groups? Nope.
I may have been a bit more off putting in old days with her. But, she's earned my respect because my views have changed. And, that partly has to do with your stance and blogs from the past. I had to set aside some of the anger I had with being forced into being an outsider because I was into games and not very social because of it. I've had to open up, because I took what you had to say to heart.
I literally had a conversation with someone that would have looked down and made of comic book fans 30 years ago, and I am talking to them about DC Xmen and Marvel movies. Like that gaming has changed, and will continue to change.
The Giantbomb thing has come up and the Xbox LP thing has come up a lot in the You Tubers I watch IE Mundane Matt and a few of the middle YT guys and girls. I even mentioned the Xbox LP thing on my blog I believe. I am too lazy to look though
Remember the XBOX One LP was a huge story.
Yeah, the LP stuff has been covered by the guys I watch.
As far as Phil Fish goes, it is also a message for him as well. It seems Twitter causes him great pain and distraught, and just throws more fuel onto the fire. If blogging caused me the pain it seems to cause him with twitter, I would have taken off sooner. Why would anyone continue to post things on twitter if every time it caused you to go angry and “wild out” ?
I am like Phil in many ways, but I would have dropped twitter sooner. Phil, you have talent, stopping shouting on twitter and be creative and make games. Stop yelling at the haters. Do You know how you get back at the haters? Keep making the games you want to make and keep being successful.
Thanks for clearing up the Twitter thing. I have zero knowledge about that site other than when I write about it in my stories.
I wasn't accusing you of not caring about those other issues... it just seemed to the majority of people I've spoken to about the #gamergate tag, the harassers mainly, only cared about one thing: the corruption of people knowing each other, even though there was no evidence that anything untoward actually happened.
I'm sure by now you've read through that link I emailed you as well, so you know that 4chan basically used a large group of disparate people to hide themselves so they could attack their targets while using the good intentions of the majority as a shield. And every thing they denied doing was actually something they were actively doing. I have a feeling you've seen the claim that ZQ/AS were faking everything at least once this year... that no one ever really went after them and they produced the abuse themselves for publicity/sympathy and that they were beholden to produce proof, but no amount of it would ever be enough.
If someone robbed your house and smeared a death threat on your wall with excrement and you told people publicly and there was a loud group of people telling everyone that it didn't happen and/or you did it yourself, you'd be furious. And if you heard that happened to someone, you'd be at least a little pissed off.
I think a HUGE part of the problem when it comes to gaming media is this: 48% of the people who play games are women. The major game sites are designed for and serve young men exclusively though.
If you think I'm just pulling that fact out of my ass, just look at, for instance, how IGN markets itself to advertisers:
http://corp.ign.com/
The truth is though, publications are more afraid of their audiences than they are of game publishers... they capitulate more easily to the whims of the former than the latter.
--
I've been called a SJW btw, and the people who have called me pejoratively are not great people. They aren't people you're having a minor disagreement with.
And speaking of that subject BTW: Jontron is an asshole really. I actually saw this happen in real time, so it isn't a fake screenshot: http://oi57.tinypic.com/jhg9xg.jpg
I've had people tell me that despite 33 years playing games, I wasn't really someone who played games.
And I've been called a white knight because I was standing up to a bully, and in their mind the only reason you would support a woman in that situation is because you wanted to try to have sex with her.
Strangely enough I've been called a few non-white racial slurs in the past eight months as well, which was really weird.
Basically in my experience, people who are called or self-identify as being into social justice are people who love games. "Gamers" (and I am putting that in quotes because I am talking about a very specific set of men who self-identify as such) are not at all interested in social justice. It only really started to be used pejoratively in this particular context because of gamergate and because of the behavior of those using that movement/hashtag to further their own ends.
Game Journalism is probably the lowest paying gig in the whole scheme of writing. People who have left to write about other topics all seem to make a lot more money doing so... so basically when that vocal minority pushes people out, they are getting rid of the most passionate people, the people who could have been writing about anything, but chose far less pay to talk about games.
And when it comes to that writer, the Guardian's legal department didn't just say that it was in no way a conflict of interest... they were hesitant to put the disclaimer because in doing so, they were setting a horrible precedent for other op/ed pieces.
Think about that in perspective. They are a highly respected newspaper that has been around over a century and has likely published hundreds of thousands of stories, so they have a LOT of experience dealing with issues of conflict of interest. I'm far more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for being technically correct in this situation rather than siding with the people who used that self-admission (those same people behind this whole sorted mess for weeks) to destroy someone.
Yeah I read the stuff about Zoe Quinn and AS (I am going to start using that abbreviation to mention her now because it is hard to spell that out.) supposedly faked their own attacks and hacks. I actually believe the threats and the hacks are real, but let's look into them too. Let's find out what is going on here and why there are people fueling the flames. I HATE the fact people are using threats to counter argue AS videos. There is enough counter material there to make videos about it. “Yes, there are problems with VG and the way we treat women characters in games, but there are those stand outs that counter those tropes.” Yet, there are attacks and hacks and threats.
((If someone robbed your house and smeared a death threat on your wall with excrement and you told people publicly and there was a loud group of people telling everyone that it didn't happen and/or you did it yourself, you'd be furious. And if you heard that happened to someone, you'd be at least a little pissed off. ))
I've had a person threaten to kill me on a occasion, but I generally wouldn't talk about outside a few friends, if at all. Threats are things I generally ignore generally because I just put aside. The number of times I've been close to being run over by car just doesn't register to me. I am shocked for a moment and then move, that's the way I feel about threats. I probably should make a big deal out of it. I have a strange view on these sort of things.
((I think a HUGE part of the problem when it comes to gaming media is this: 48% of the people who play games are women. The major game sites are designed for and serve young men exclusively though. ))
That's something I completely agree with you on 100%. I've read the facts and yes that is a mjor problem and it is something that needs to change. (Don't get me started with those ads with the half naked women promoting some silly online rpg games. What game was that again?) It is something that marketing and promotion need to take into effect to better promote their games and sites to a wider audience.
Yes, there seems to be this focus on gaming with the dudes and I do have a problem with that. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. There are games that take this into consideration and have strong female role models. As far as sites go, you're 100% correct. It seems to be for the dudes.
Let's address this and actually talk about showing female gamers are important to the market and are a huge part of this community. Let's just do it without all the shouting and hate and hacking and pooping (?).
Like I said before, my views have changed considerably because the info is coming from you someone's opinion I trust and respect, because you view all sides of an issue. You know I am a different person and blogger now. I actually do take into consideration how people view my stuff and who I might hurt. (I've certainly had people respond the posts about them. Which there is another one recently I haven't mentioned) And I know you actually don't have an agenda. You believe in your causes strongly and that's something I respect. If we had more people like you adding to the discussion I think more can be solved and corrected...which is why you REALLY should start blogging again.
I'm just saying.
I'll get to the SJW part in a second. I have to start writing this Sonic 3 music post soon while it is still in my head.
I have no problem with people standing up and fighting for what people believe in. I’ve had many causes via this blog, but I think we’ve gone a bit too far with fighting everything. (remember someone was outraged because someone called a fictional character a bitch and made a big stink about) Not everything needs a curade. I feel many SJWs are talking it way too far and we’re offended by everything. (I partly blame this on Twitter with its 150 characters and bc people can’t fully express themselves fully with short “tweet”)
I started to really get pissed off when the cancel Colbert thing blew up. Have we gotten so sentive that we can’t look at something objective before calling for attack? Yeah, I have to admit I sometimes roll my eyes when I see some of the movements. Keep in mind that even the far right now has moments and hash tags and their own forms of SJWs. It’s not just the left. (I might call Adam Baldwin one)
The Colbert thing was parody, yet they didn’t want to hear that.
Keep in mind I am not lumping you with these people. You believe in certain things and want to fight for them. And, I know you aren’t going to fight every tiny battle that amounts to small fries. I have the problem with the ones that do attack every little thing.
We fight for what believe , but not everything needs a fight.
((I've had people tell me that despite 33 years playing games, I wasn't really someone who played games.))
We both know that attack has been used on both sides of the argument. Everyone is a gamer as long as you play games…with the exception of that damn Kim Kardashian VG. That is no game and should be wiped from the universe. (sorry, got side tracked) I hate that I have to pull out my gamer card with some people too. (I guess I have a race and gamer cards)
(Strangely enough I've been called a few non-white racial slurs in the past eight months as well, which was really weird.)
That’s a whole another discussion and goes back some of the liberal uses of racial slurs and such. But, that’s whole other post
White Knight: I know you aren’t one because I’ve read your blog and know what kind of person you are. (You don’t want to sleep with them). We, and I mean everyone, can’t identify what kind of person or why they take a stand of something with tiny 150 characters and strange random tumblr blogs. We need long form discussion and videos and less hash tags and 150 jabs when it comes to true moments.
Maybe I am little too old school when it comes to social movement via twitter and tumblr .
I'd write more, but I've really gotten into thai food and need to warm some up.
I'm not the same person I was back in 2006, or even a couple years ago.
We've had discussions in the past about vetting people in geek culture, especially women and other "non-traditional" geeks, and how I felt that geekdom should be inclusive... if you like or love something, you are part of that club. You might know more, you might know less, but if we share a passion and we treat each other respectfully, that is all that generally matters to me.
And I recently realized that I've never been harassed playing a multiplayer game. Like ever.
EVER!
The level of harassment I receive on a daily basis, on the aggregate is so minimal that if I was not aware of what other people go through online, I'd think that my experiences were typical. But they're not. I wrote a lot of blog entries... the amount of people who were assholes to me since 2006, I can count on one hand.
And that, that is something that really bothers me. I can say a lot of things and I don't get harassed, but someone else saying so much less, or having the gall to make a game or write about a game while being a woman or a member of the LGBT community or being non-white doesn't have that luxury.
I have a friend on twitter who is South Asian, and in May he made two tweets about the Far Cry 4 cover and indicated that it looked a little racist. At that point he had about 400 followers which was about 3 times as many as I had (and on Twitter, that still isn't a huge number). For even suggesting that, he got 11 days of thousands of mentions on Twitter from, let's face it--a bunch of angry white guys, with the most horrible insults and anger... and IGN's Colin Moriarty just kept teeing up on him in print, on Twitter and on a video podcast.
Like I've said in a comment here months ago, I can't imagine personally being able to make 2 statements totally under 280 characters that could cause that.
That guy who tweeted that people who lynched black people in the 19th century were that time's equivalent to SJWs now and Jontron agreeing with that statement didn't get that amount of internet hatred. And Jontron has 219 THOUSAND followers.
And because of the people I follow on Twitter, I see that kind of shit happen all the time, and when you see it happen all the time, it becomes harder to ignore it, to just say that it is a few bad eggs and call out the culture that makes people think that not only is that ok, but that's the way things should be.
There is a huge difference between someone calling a developer/writer/individual an asshole because they said some fucked up misogynistic/racist shit and actively trying to get someone to commit suicide:
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/09/08/zoe-quinns-screenshots-of-4chans-dirty-tricks-were-just-the-appetizer-heres-the-first-course-of-the-dinner-directly-from-the-irc-log/
Not only is it not in the same ballpark and not even in the same sport... it is not even on the same planet.
I can honestly say that I have never... NEVER seen someone who was labelled, either by their detractors or self-proclaimed, as a SJW say anything approaching the vitriol they receive. The word that comes immediately to mind when it comes to the people I know and see every day on Twitter in the "SJW" gaming community is restraint.
Basically, as a bare minimum, I'd want everyone to have my kind of experience I've had on the internet since 1995. That shouldn't be that a high bar to clear.
And with some of the SJW stuff you've heard... a lot of it was fake too like End Fathers' Day etc.
Suey Park and that hashtag are two things I'm not qualified to talk about, ESPECIALLY since I'm a white guy.
There are games that take this into consideration and have strong female role models.
There's this very gendered bias when it comes to games though. If it seems like women really like a particular kind of game, they are designed with women in mind or even designed BY a woman, hardcore gamers decry it/them as not a real game.
By their logic, Gone Home is not a real game... Depression Quest and other titles made in twine are not real games. Hidden object games are not real games to them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV8AM1ciS4I
I've also seen this with mobile games (and you even did it yourself with the KK game). You singled it out specifically, despite the fact that it follows the same model as a host of other games, including mobile releases from EA, (and apparently it actually critiques celebrity culture).
And I know that in 2008, 2009... I would have been right there with you destroying this game. I remember the stuff I used to write about celebrities... I would have totally bagged on this too and hard. I can totally admit that because I know it's the truth.
I shit on the free-to-play model a lot. I mean, A LOT. So many shitty games come out with that pay-to-win model and no one says anything. Sure, there was some grumbling about Dungeon Keeper and that PvZ game (and those were some egregious examples anyway), but it is generally quiet when it comes to these games.
But when Kim K has a game released that uses the same mechanisms, the same structure... that's the game that gets the negative attention. Why do you think that is?
Some of it is yes, because it's Kim, but a lot of it is because clearly this isn't a game designed with men as the primary audience and again there are A LOT of these games. And it isn't generally women who are complaining about this game... it's dudes.
And remember, this shitty game exists too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mYd12L4iE4 and THAT gets to call itself a game.
I was making a joke by pointing out the KK game, because it is one of the top selling games.
With Kim, it has to do with her not having any talent what so ever. People can have an opinion on either Quinn or any other female dev, but Kim didn’t have much to do with this game other than lending her voice. And, you better believe Quinn was an active person in dev Depression Quest. On the hand, Kim has no skill other than letting other people make money for.
I have a problem with the culture that supports and pays big bucks to these people. I’m sue there is sexism there with attacking her, but for me it is because we’ve turned into a culture that supports these people that bring nothing creative to the gaming world such as Kim, but reap the biggest rewards from it.
There is a big different between Gone Home and even Depression compared to say the Kim game or even that Shannon Tweed game, that’s effect and work. Gone Home may or may not be a game, but clearly someone made that game with passion and I can give credit to the makers for that. KK game is just a turd that people are only playing because of this foolish cele-but-not culture we’ve seen grow. I’d even give The Room a half nod compared to anything Kim has to offer and I couldn’t make it through the movie.
People could make the claim that To The Moon isn’t really a game. And, they might have a point, but I still cried at the end of that game. Yes, 8-bit character models actually made bitter angry me shed a tear or two. It doesn’t matter if it is or isn’t a game if it makes a connection with you.
For me, I am a little confused what emotional connection that Kim game has on people other than you have many women wanting to be Kim. Which is a sad state of affairs. I hate that model a of game play and paying too, but when you combine the two it is worst.
It is interesting to look into the Suey Park if you get a chance. I could get into way she was in the wrong side of the argument because it actually attacking racists view with its tweet that started the whole thing. It goes back to me getting angry with people wasting their time on things that do matter when actually have millionaires not wanting their girlfriend taking pictures and hanging out with black people. When you have Justin Beaver (too lazy to look up the real spelling) singing racist things. We have people shooting people and asking questions later because of their race, yet we’re hash tagging Colbert. Let’s fight the bigger things first.
I’ll get to the other side comment in a few.
And, yes that FF game is really shitty
Crap I forgot, To The Moon even makes fun of the fact it may or may not be a game. One character literally turns the game into a RPG battle screen with a "swooshing" sound with the transition. The HUD as HP and TP stats and the music is battle paced.
One characters tells them to cut it out,and the game goes back to its normal story mode.
I'll have to find that clip.
((The level of harassment I receive on a daily basis, on the aggregate is so minimal that if I was not aware of what other people go through online, I'd think that my experiences were typical. But they're not. I wrote a lot of blog entries... the amount of people who were assholes to me since 2006, I can count on one hand. ))
This, you have a point. If you remember, I got into a bit of thing with a personality (DJ) that I wrote about years ago. I didn’t like him and I really ripped into him. The DJ and I talked for a bit via e-mail. I asked him how he even encountered that blog post. He said many of his fans e-mail him my blog, but not really one or how many came in and attacked me. Sure I’ve had my attacks, but never really harassment.
That’s why I have a problem with people attacking AS on threats and surface level stuff. If you have a problem with her videos, take her theories to task. Ripped them apart, just don’t do the personal thing like hacks and threats. Stop with the raids and threats. Deconstruct her videos.
BTW, I looked at the cover. He may have a point. It is a bit racist, and I noticed there are variants too without the offensive material. Far Cry, I am not sure what the game is about. Does it deal with race relations or parody of them in the manner as GTA5? That also has to play a factor in the cover. Some people called Bioshock racist, but it was in the context of the story and time period. (There is an Asian slur in the recent DLC), but the characters of that time actually talked that way.
It that the case with Far Cry? I know nothing (John Snow) about that series.
((And because of the people I follow on Twitter, I see that kind of shit happen all the time, and when you see it happen all the time, it becomes harder to ignore it, to just say that it is a few bad eggs and call out the culture that makes people think that not only is that ok, but that's the way things should be. ))
I can see your POV. I am a bit edgier and I’ve attacked people for their statement. (Right now, I not sure if I am going to go after Lenham Dunham for a stupid statement, but I will let it pass because that whole part of the story is starting to fade.) If I made that blog about her, is that a form of harassment or just criticism? That’s where I am not sure the line has been drawn. If I take Adria Richards to task for her Donglegate (which I did) handling, am I the same or different from Colin Moriarty? That’s where I struggle with writing pieces about people I strongly disagree with since you and I have been talking about this.
I think it is fine to talk about people and issues as long as you don’t hack or dox them, and that’s been my stance for the past two years. Earlier, I would have viewed things differently. For me, once you state an opinion, I or anyone else can attack, discuss or debate it. Now, sending death threats or bags of shit to your house is where I draw the line. Heck, I’ve gone after Palin in some horrible ways, but can I be put in that same group? That’s where I am having the difficulty with all of this.
If Adria Richards or Dunham say something I really find out of line or disagree with, where does it become really mean attacks or just something else? Can I make a blog or Podcast without being bully or worst?
These are the things that are vexing me.
I cut this comment down a lot, because we are getting to the point where we are both addressing a lot of points and we are starting to see some bloat here.
Let's get down to brass tacks here.
First, who ultimately gets to decide what is and is not a game?
Personally I have a very wide net for what is and is not a video game. If I'm interacting with it, it is a game, a piece of interactive entertainment. But do I get to be a gatekeeper on this, and if not, who ARE the gatekeepers?
And secondly, because while I know I may have swayed you somewhat in how you are approaching this issue, I am curious to completely understand your position on this because I respect you and I don't think you have explicitly explained this to me so: from your perspective, what were the valid points from the gamergate side of things.
If Adria Richards or Dunham say something I really find out of line or disagree with, where does it become really mean attacks or just something else? Can I make a blog or Podcast without being bully or worst?
Are you harassing them? Are you telling other people to harass them? Are you organizing or participating with a group of people to harass them? Do you treat anyone as if they are an existential threat to the things you enjoy?
Having read the things you've written for a long time, we both know the answer to those questions is NO. You aren't suggesting people pile on and try to wreck someone else's life.
Because think about how rarely our worlds intersect with the people we write/have written about given the amount of things we've collectively discussed. I know that Juliana Hatfield read something that I wrote about her that was more about me than her, but I do think it had an unfortunate side effect on something she had been doing (she was explaining the meaning of her songs)... she stopped doing that a month or so later and started her blog fresh. She wouldn't have seen what I said if I didn't link to her blog.
The things I say, I put out there under my own name... I don't hide behind anonymity (and I'm talking about the people with twitter burner accounts), so if I say something, I'm admitting to the world that I am the one who is saying it. I'm owning those words.
But the things we say aren't really directed at the people we talk about... those people aren't the audience for the things we say, and I think there is a huge difference between saying something amounts your friends and peers and going up to someone on the street, emailing them or yelling at them on twitter and saying the same thing.
You aren't going out of your way to antagonize people, to make sure that they know you didn't like something they have done. These last two points are the crucial difference.
side note: here is a review on Indie Game the movie from my sub channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbCq8cOaXiM
I'll get back with you on the comments from above
For me, it is revealing if you donated to dev fund. Don't stop the support just reveal the donation and if you're doing a review or opinion piece and you are friends, excluded yourself. (However, There is a discussion about a gaming blogger vs. journalist) This could fold into a bigger thing, because what about gaming insiders in companies? Friends or the writer or just something else? That might be something to discuss also.
I do believe we need to be open about the money we give to the same people report. For me, I am okay with donations, but it needs to be revealed that you game money to a company or person if you're covering that area. (people have been suspended in the mainstream media for this)
This is the main point I believe in the gamer gate side.
You've known me long enough that I've always had this stance. Even when I've been offered actual ad money for ads (legit), I haven't let them on the blog. I just feel a little uneasy just within myself to do it.
This is the main point I believe in the gamer gate side.
At this point, we are seeing this being appieed
Keep in mind I feel the same way about paid LP. And, we know that Microsoft got caught with its pants down. I am okay with ad revenue as long as the people paying the adds dictate terms.
Should this cover bloggers like us too? I am not sure.
When I was taking journalist classes, my teacher has a strict rule to never let someone you're interview buy you a drink. Not to take gifts and so on. You even had to reveal if you interviewed the person via e-mail or chat.
((Having read the things you've written for a long time, we both know the answer to those questions is NO. You aren't suggesting people pile on and try to wreck someone else's life. ))
Okay, that makes me feel a little bit better. I just feel I could be easily lumped in the more harsher elements of the thing or even worst be called a bully. I've had that happen a few times. I, in my opinion that there are elements that tend to lump people like myself in the harsher sides of the groups. Remember the after effects of elevatorgate when that woman compared someone disagreeing with feminist is “worst than rape threats”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJGZM2jtMpg
And, that's been troubling me for a long time. However, the fact you've separated what I and other do away from calling for people's dox and heads, does make me feel a little bit better.
((You aren't going out of your way to antagonize people, to make sure that they know you didn't like something they have done. These last two points are the crucial difference. ))
Okay, that I can agree with that. I don't leave the blog on their doorstep and say “read this!” Now, if they come across this piece or that piece, “User beware.”
Side note: I never talked about this on the blog yet, but I actually had one of the former Power Rangers read my blog post about her and leave a nice comment. I had to scramble to the old post and check and see if I wrote anything mean, just to be sure. But, getting that comment REALLY made my day.
We can probably end this here. I think we've made some interesting points and probably gone through this more than most people or vloggers combine and no will read it ironically. I've enjoyed the conveo though.
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